French Insider Podcast Ep. 16
Growing Your Business in the US and Canada: The Story of Maman and the Power of Social Media
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In this episode of French Insider, Benjamin Sormonte, co-founder and co-owner of Maman, the French bakeries and cafes known for making Oprah’s favorite chocolate chip cookies, speaks about building a successful lifestyle brand in North America, including the challenges of bringing a very French experience to a North American audience and the role that Instagram and other social media platforms have played in Maman's success.
Guest:
About Benjamin Sormonte
A French-born lawyer, Benjamin and his wife, Elisa Marshall, opened the first Maman in 2014. What began as a single, independent Soho bakery and cafe has since grown into a leading lifestyle brand that boasts locations across New York City, Montreal, and Toronto, complete with a line of retail items that allows its loyal following to "take Maman home.” Maman is known for its delicious menu of hearty farm fresh salads, quiches, sandwiches, and of course pastries and sweets, including a famous nutty chocolate chip cookie that was named one of ‘Oprah’s favorite things’” in 2017 and one of the best chocolate chip cookies in New York by NY Magazine.
Maman means "mother" in French and remains a passion project for Benjamin and Elisa, despite the brand's exponential growth. The two have successfully melded their earliest childhood experiences in the kitchen, along with a nod to their mothers from the south of France and North America, into an all-encompassing sensory experience marked by rustic décor at every turn, the aroma and comfort of cuisines inspired by family traditions, and the highest quality, locally sourced ingredients.
Transcript:
Valerie Demont:
Welcome to the French Insider, a Sheppard Mullin French Desk monthly podcast, dedicated to helping French investors and companies in growing their business in the United States. Each episode will feature conversations with thought leaders and experts in various industries, including technology, life sciences, fashion, energy, entertainment, and many others. Tune in to learn about the challenges faced by those investing in the US and the solutions to these challenges. And now for the inside look.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
I am an associate here at the New York office at Sheppard Mullin. On today's episode of French Insider we have the pleasure to have Benjamin Sormonte, co-founder along with his wife Elisa Marshall, of Maman, the Southern France-inspired café and bakery that has seen massive growth since its inception.
With locations on the East Coast and Canada, the story of Maman is one that transcends a typical café. Through the use of social media, word of mouth and creativity, the couple have transformed their once local Soho spot into an experience, allowing them to quickly become one of the most Instagram-able spots in Manhattan, with customers waiting in lines around the block to get a taste of their famous, Oprah-approved nutty chocolate chip cookie. So naturally we had to speak with him and get the inside look. Ben, welcome to the show.
Benjamin Sormonte:
Thank you so much for having me, Sarah.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
Just to start I wanted to get a little bit of your background and the conception of Maman.
Benjamin Sormonte:
I'm a former corporate lawyer, so nothing to do with the F&B world. After high school in France, I went to the US and then in Canada, I studied finance and went to law school. And after a while practicing law I didn't see myself necessarily being a partner in a big firm, and so forth.
So I had an opportunity to open something in Europe with some friends, then moved to New York. And at the time I met my partner who's my wife now, and we had a dream together to open a café, and especially coming to New York we had a lot of friends but we all lived in a studio or one-bedroom. We could not get together. So we wanted to do something where it's an extension of your dining room, where we can host everyone, we can mingle with everyone.
But also we love cooking so we said we would love to show our recipe to the world, what we learned with my mom, which Maman means mother in French. And here we are in 2014, we opened our first Maman in Soho on Centre Street.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
Because Maman has grown, has become almost like a staple New York City brand at this point. And so, what I'm curious is what are some of the challenges you faced when you were trying to bring this sort of French experience to a North American audience.
Benjamin Sormonte:
I think you have to understand the markets. I don't think you can just say, "Oh, because I'm French I'm going to do what I know and what I'm comfortable with and what's working in France." You have to really understand the market.
So at first you try a couple of things, you see the reaction of the customer or your friends. You do a lot of testing. Just realize that I think the best way to go about it is really to embrace the culture here, but also making sure you respect your heritage and try to do like that melting pot, so you can really have your food accessible to a lot of people, not only the tourists of this world or your friends, but also the clientele here.
So that was one of the biggest challenges at first, trying to understand that and making sure as much as you like the food that you produce for yourself, your only customer, you have to make sure that people like what you're doing.
So that was one of the first challenges, and I think like everyone will tell you real estate as well. When you come to a city, when you don't know much the market, to find the perfect space that you believe that it's going to be the perfect space is not easy. So that was one of the two biggest challenges that we faced very early on.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
Can I ask in terms of the locations, because it has grown exponentially in the last few years. You guys started in Soho in 2014. What was the decision behind increasing some of the locations you picked?
Benjamin Sormonte:
Very good question. I think organically we never anticipated or we never had the intent to say, "It's going to be a 20-location kind of a concept." First it was like, "Let's do one, and then... " We were living in Tribeca at the time. We were working from Tribeca to Soho to go to Maman on a daily basis and there was always a space we loved in Tribeca. And we're like, "Oh, we hope one day it's going to be vacant."
And one morning we walked by and there was a “For Rent” sign, and we’re like “oh, we're going to be curious and just knock on the door and see if we can see the space”, thinking obviously that we could not afford it, and not even with the intent of saying, "It will be amazing for Maman."
But then we come in and we're like, "Wow, that's amazing." And we digged in a little bit, negotiating, and here is your second Maman. And I think after you do two, three, it's kind of an addiction, you know? You want to keep your creativeness going. We were very fortunate to have some great opportunities, so organically we went from one, two, three, to 20 locations today.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
I'm very partial to the one by 30 Rock, next to our office.
Benjamin Sormonte:
Ah there we go, It's a good one.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
What was the decision to move into Canada afterwards?
Benjamin Sormonte:
So I studied in Canada. My wife and partner, she's from Canada. In 2019, she was pregnant and with all the business in the US and stuff, we said maybe it would be better to go back home for her. We have more support.
So we moved there and all of a sudden, I was doing a lot of back-and-forth. And say, "Why don't we open Maman in Montreal?" So that was a second location in Canada in '19.
The first location was Toronto. And why Toronto is because she's from there. We knew the landlord and the landlord came to New York after we opened the one in Soho and said, "I would love to bring Maman to Canada," and we were very comfortable there because we knew the landlord, we knew the building, we knew the business, we knew we had so many friends in the business. So again, I think it was being opportunistic and also obviously going to Canada quite often because to see Elisa's family, that was kind of natural for us.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
I'm wondering did you find a difference in opening up the business in Canada versus the US, or could you carry on a lot of the same lessons learned?
Benjamin Sormonte:
I think every market is different, even within the US. We open Bethesda and DC, and it's a little bit different. But I will say it's kind of similar in that sense. What you have to really get familiar with is all the regulation and the different codes, compliant items that you have to abide by.
And also try to understand the market, like Toronto a different market than New York in terms of taste, in terms of price. But after quick due diligence you get the gist of it and it was not that difficult, I would say, to open there.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
Right. I guess what I'm curious about is, because Maman has become more than just sort of a bakery-café. You guys have a cookbook, you have merchandise, you have partnerships, and you've been characterized by many as a sort of lifestyle brand. So could you talk a little bit about the strategy of building that brand and the relationships with customers in Canada and the US?
Benjamin Sormonte:
Yeah. I think Elisa did very well very early on understanding that she didn't want to open a café and bakery only. She wanted to create a lifestyle brand. So it took her a lot of time but she really nailed the details, from the coffee cup to the wallpaper to the picture to the design, because for her it was like, "I don't want to just open a café." She comes from a fashion background. She really had in mind at the time to hopefully create a lifestyle brand, and not just be labeled as a café or a bakery, whatever you want to call Maman.
Yeah, all this attention to detail I think paid off. After a while, we were able to do a cookbook. You're going to see more products on the e-commerce and retail side of things, we’re developing a couple of items. Yeah, try to really take that holistic approach and make it interesting for us, but obviously for the customer and make sure that someone who's in Texas may not be able to grab a cookie obviously, but maybe they can enjoy the cookie from the recipe book or having a Maman mug or hat, or something cool.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
You can tell the attention to detail and the authenticity of the brand really comes through. I especially liked, I saw, I think it was the Petit Prince croissants in partnership with production. I thought that one's so cute.
Benjamin Sormonte:
Yeah. We do a lot of collaboration like this, and my staff is amazing. After tending this partnership and, yeah, Le Petit Prince was a great one. And try not to be cookie cutter, like try to reinvent ourself a little bit sometime, it's really is collaboration. It's a great exposure and you work with very talented and amazing people. So it's great.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
From the marketing side, because I know you have quite a following on Instagram, can you talk a little bit about the role of Instagram and maybe some other social media platforms in your branding?
Benjamin Sormonte:
I think it's key obviously. It's something that was new to me when we opened Maman. Elisa is in charge of the Instagram from day one, and I think, again, she's done a fantastic job understanding that it was super important. It was something super foreign to me, barely had Instagram at the time we opened. But obviously the success and the ability for Maman to grow is directly linked to social media and the exposure that my team has been able to develop. We would not be where we are today without some social media push on Instagram, and so forth.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
Did you guys work with consultants when you first started out, or was it really sort of a small team and just kind of workshopping that way?
Benjamin Sormonte:
It's a good question. So we asked ourselves the same question when we started. And then, for us we understood very quickly that we may not have the networking that a publicist can help you, a PR agency and so forth. But also, we worked with some big PR agency for one of the concept before in New York and we just wanted someone who grabs the concept, but small enough to grow with us.
So we met Rachel Cooper, who at that point had a couple of accounts but was kind of like us, starting a PR agency. And she has been fantastic with us, and she's still our PR since today. So we've been working together for eight years, and she's definitely part of the success of Maman, yeah.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
Amazing. So in terms of kind of building that customer base, for you what would you say are things looking back at lessons learned, things that worked for you guys and things that maybe didn't?
Benjamin Sormonte:
Good question. So I think social media worked for us. You can really reach out to people on such a large scale, from even people who have never seen Maman before. I think that's the beauty about social media: your reach is limitless. And then you have people who are like, "Oh, next time I'm in New York I'm going to visit Maman." So I think that aspect was very well done.
I think where we've got to get even better, I think it's more local marketing, making sure we can reach out to social media, followers, and so forth. But when you go to a community can we be part of that community, and that community might not be on social media and may not follow us. So I think you have to strike the right balance between the social media which is limitless and reach out to people who are not even close to Maman, but also making sure that you don't lose track of that local community which is super key.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
Right. And then, in terms of staff, when it came to hiring in the US and Canada, how was that? What were some challenges, and I guess what was your experience generally?
Benjamin Sormonte:
Yeah, like everyone else, I think especially when you grow you have to find more people so more people, more challenges. You want to make sure you keep the same culture and making sure while you grow you have the people who have been with you for six, seven years and you have new people. So you want to make sure that integration works well.
We all had a very difficult time through COVID, like everyone else. It was pretty difficult to find people because there were a lot less people who wanted to work and less people in the workforce, like everyone else. But my team has done a fantastic job. I think there's going to be some challenge but I'm very confident that my team will deliver on that end.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
And then, I guess is it so different from managing a workforce in France? So I guess if you had any advice for people coming, looking to manage large-scale workforce in the US.
Benjamin Sormonte:
It would go back to my first point, on the same, the culture: each culture is different. They are different, doesn't mean, it's not negative. It's just understanding the culture and not necessarily imposing on people your culture or what you've learned or what you have experienced, because what works in one market may not work in another market.
And it's true, even different between US and Canada, or even within the US from DC to New York. I think try to listen to people and understand the culture a little bit better.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
Makes sense. It's really good advice. I want to sort of move on to some of the lessons learned throughout the years. What has surprised you in building your business in the US and Canada? And what resources were helpful as you guys kind of built this along?
Benjamin Sormonte:
Networking. I always say to people networking is key, because people have done it before you. They made the mistake that you hope you're not going to make. So I had a chance to at least meet amazing people who helped me along the way avoid some of the mistakes that they made.
For me, now I do some consulting work where I love to give it back because I was there for connect with the right people, and I hope that I can help anyone who wants to do a project in New York and try to give them a couple of advice that were given to me that was super valuable for the department of building, making sure that when you say you're going to open in September you don't end up opening the next January, which happened quite often here, and stuff like that.
So for me, networking is key. And again, being open to other people and feedback from other people, because, again, people have done it before you.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
It is quite a jump. Speaking as someone who's currently a corporate lawyer, to go from that to jump to this multi-location project and really realize this dream is quite impressive. So I'm cognizant of the sort of networking you must have done to really get your sort of ins and outs of how to grow this. Did you ever imagine it was going to get to this point when you started?
Benjamin Sormonte:
Not at all. No, at first it was a passion project. We were super involved with Elisa to this day, but before it was really waking up at 6:30 both together, and baking with her. So it was really like a passion project. And for us, we really love what we're doing so we never questioned where we want to go. Organically, here we are, seven or eight years later and with multiple locations. So never imagined or envisioned that, and that was not the plan but life is full of surprises.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
Yeah. So I guess before I leave our listeners, if you could give one piece of advice to someone with a similar sort of passion project coming to the US what would it be?
Benjamin Sormonte:
Do your due diligence, I think it's key before jumping in. You have to jump in at one point, but make sure you have as much information as you can so you can make an informed decision. And be a sponge, be ready to be there 24 hours a day, work very hard. But it's very rewarding. And as well, I think that's the only way you can really understand the business and making sure your business can grow; by being there and doing a little bit of everything.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
All right. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us. This has been great.
Benjamin Sormonte:
Thank you so much for having me. Hope to see you soon.
Sarah Ben-Moussa:
Of course, thank you for being on the show.
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